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Church and Presentations on Popes At 03:56 PM 6/18/01 -0700, you wrote: Hi, I have been a devout Catholic and completely loyal to Rome and all the teachings of the Church. These past few weeks I have gone through a dark time where I have doubted and been on the verge of giving up the Church. Everywhere I turn, I find no support--everyone is either against the Church teachings (even Catholics and Priests), or don't care--Everything is the same! Priests have told me it is ok to use contraception, women priests should be allowed and Eastern religions are good to mix in with Christianity. I can't go into all the confusion! I found your site and began to read, thinking I found someone who was loyal to the Church and not infiltrated by the New Age or other things. Then I read EVERYWHERE in your site negativity and judgement and almost mutiny toward the Holy Father. You made me ever closer to leaving the Church. If what you say is true, it is proof AGAINST the Church being the true church of God. Popes can be sinners and even do evil as in some past popes but they CAN'T teach wrong in Faith or Morals --and you say many times that he does teach wrong in Faith and Morals. Your site is very much a downer and because you are true to Church teaching itself, it is much more depressing and damaging against the Church to see you speak of the Pope the way you do. If I saw a satanic site do it, I wouldn't flitch, but from you..it really was discouraging. I think you are doing more harm than good for the Church by cutting the Vicar of Christ down to some terrible unholy person in league with Satanic plans. +++++ From: "Fr. David Trosch" Dear David,
While I appreciate your consternation, I do not believe that you have taken
adequate time to understand the presentations that I have been
making. Infallibility resides only in the moral leader of the Church and
then only under limited circumstances. Popes can personally teach and
practice as much error as anyone else, and due to their high position they
can more easily lead astray those who have an untested or unproven faith.
There are two documents on my site that develop the hierarchical
organization of teachings and authorities in the Church. The following one
will lead you to the other.
http://www.trosch.org/chu/authorit.htm
The Church is the only valid safeguard in having a positive relationship
with God. Satan knows this well and has placed all of his forces to try to
destroy the Church in whatever way he can. He has infiltrated it with many
evil persons. Keep faith and do what you can to preserve the true values
of the Church. In doing so you will secure a place in eternal life.
If you care to call you can reach me at 1 251-___-____.
Sincerely in Christ, At 03:02 PM 6/19/01 -0700, you wrote:
Dear Father,
Perhaps I did not take enough time to review all parts of your site (which
I will do), but I reacted the way I do because of the period I am in (over
the last two weeks) of being bombarded by confusion. I work at a Catholic
Organization and just TODAY at lunch, the head of my department was
talking about how he believed in reincarnation--and was teaching it to a
visitor as a Catholic belief!
Interspersed Comment: A mortal sin
Two other ladies told me how they pass out condoms to kids on their block
as "protection."
Interspersed Comment: A mortal sin
Various priests this week have said it is fine to mix in Eastern Asian
meditation with my prayer--ZEN, Buddhism, etc.
Interspersed Comment: Insufficient data, but sounds ill advised and at least potentially sinful.
A spiritual director (Franciscan priest) told me contraception is fine
because the Holy Father's teaching on it is NOT Infallible.
Interspersed Comment: As you did not refer to a teaching source, a homily, an informal presentation, etc., I cannot respond to the particular situation. But,
since the statement against contraception (this includes the contraceptive
mentality regardless of method) is in accordance with Sacred Scripture and
the constant teaching of the Church it would automatically be
infallible. The infallibility of the position is true regardless of who
makes the statement or the circumstances under which it was made.
How can I have any idea what the Church wants from me when everyone is
teaching different things, and the reason I reacted to you the way I did
was because the only way I had through the confusion was just to say
"ok....well, I'll just look to the Holy Father for guidance, and anyone
not in communion with him is wrong." Well, when you said all these things
about him, that burst my last sanctuary.
Interspersed Comment: I understand how you felt as once I believed that all of the published
statements of saints were always true, but upon entering seminary this
misconception was quickly corrected.
I'm sorry to have been so hard on you; I'm sure you do much great work.
Interspersed Comment: As you have noted I am hard on others. It is not my expectation that the
positions I hold, that I believe to be in full conformity with God's will
(always open to correction), will be readily accepted particularly in view
of the fact that there are so many false teachings and teachers currently
in the Church.
I have a question for you. How do you know when something the Pope
teaches IS or IS NOT Infallible?
Interspersed Comment: Please refer to the documents referenced in my last Email. The primary
consideration is whether he is in conformity with prior official teachings
of the Church. Keep the following rule in mind.
The teachings of Scripture are sound and reliable when properly understood
in context with the whole of Scripture (Note: Jesus made particular
changes concerning sacrifice and some disciplinary matters such as dietary
restrictions). God is not fickle. He does not make rules for one
generation that do not apply to all other generations (Note: sacrifices
and dietary restrictions, etc., only applied to the those bound to the
Mosaic covenant.). God is universal as are all of His teachings including
His prescribed disciplinary measures.
A pope is not personally
infallible. He makes or endorses infallible statements that are universal on matters of faith and morals --keeping in mind the above limitations--
when he himself is not under moral automatic excommunication.
Legally this can be determined only by a future pope in good standing. Concerning
disciplinary matters, not addressed by God in Scripture, all such can be
bound by a moral pope for the universal Church or a segment thereof,
depending upon circumstances, but these can be later reversed by himself
or a future pope. They are morally binding upon those to whom they
apply. Liturgies and liturgical practices can be adjusted, by a moral
pope, to contemporary circumstances, needs, and perceptions regardless of
how prescribed.
If he has done so many bad things like you said (in his teaching), then
how do you know what to believe and what not to, apart from what one WANTS
to believe. What objective way is there?
Interspersed Comment: See above and documents previously referred to.
If a schism happened tomorrow and the church broke into two pieces--one
with the Holy Father and one who had "better" teaching in your eyes, which
side would you go to?
Interspersed Comment: One must stay with the organization that is under a legal pope whether or
not he is morally the pope. While he may not morally be the pope, due to
automatic excommunication for heresy, etc., the legality of his papacy
remains intact until he is removed from office by resignation, death, or
strong enough Catholic disapproval that is seen as cause for his removal
from office by some form of episcopal removal. Unfortunately this does not
seem to be clearly defined in Church teachings.
Scripture is too easy to interpret in ANY way, so if we don't use the Holy
Father for a guide as to what is proper Catholic understanding, what do we use?
Interspersed Comment: When in sincere doubt one must look for the "ring of truth" while always
keeping an open mind for truths that can be better understood and
accepted. A book on my web site may be of help.
Make All Things Right with God – http://www.trosch.org/chu/examcons.html
Thanks for all your time, I know you are busy.
God Bless, Delivered-To: frdavid@trosch.org Thanks for the time you put into your response. I appreciate your willingness to share your knowledge. I'll look more deeply into the subject.
Good luck with all your ministries.
Pax, ADDENDUM – 15 July 2001:
It should be remembered that the vast majority (95% plus) of what John Paul II and recent popes have officially published is doctrine of the Church (truth). It is the other small percentage and many unofficial presentations that either contain or lead to heretical positions. These documents either oppose or leave openings to reject established doctrines and are detrimental to the faith.
Even more serious than the above is the omission of discipline which perpetrates or allows heretical teachings and practices to enter and be nurtured exponentially within the structure of the Church thereby cultivating its gradual disintegration. The lack of discipline within the Church has allowed a tremendous number of false positions to grow and confuse sincere members of the faith. Satan is called the father of liars, but more than this, he is the greatest deceiver that has ever existed. Deception ferments when truths are presented but not reinforced by the just discipline that makes them meaningful.
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