In presenting a critique of the Mass of Pope Paul VI (Novus Ordo) the comment was made that a commentary concerning problems with the Latin Tridentine Mass would follow.  This revised response to an Email query should serve adequately to address the concerns seen as foundational to problems in the Novus Ordo Liturgy.  These problems are further emphasized in the New Mass in the three prayers at Mass, most especially in the Prayers Over The Gifts.
        It is believed that there will not be peace and harmony in the one true Church nor will it be acceptable to those in false beliefs until liturgical problems are corrected and true theology further developed.  Notable additions, comments and objections will be appreciated.

At 08:18 PM 12/7/2002 +0800, you wrote:

Dear Fr Trosch,

        Please elaborate more on the imperfections in the Tridentine Mass.

        A major problem presently existing in the contemporary Church is the near neutralization of the Sacrament of Penance (now referred to as the Sacrament of Reconciliation).  The popular current belief that sins are forgiven by the reception of Holy Communion (now often believed not to be the real presence of Jesus in the Most Holy Eucharist) is understood to be an outgrowth of incongruent theology presented in the Tridentine Mass.  Following are some of the many misleading, inappropriate, and at the very least potentially heretical excerpts from prayers that form a false foundation for the erroneous theology of forgiveness of sins during Mass.
        The content of the Mass in Latin was accepted based upon blind obedience to whatever was presented to those who memorized teachings without any depth of understanding.  Humanistic theological errors have accumulated over many centuries and are not the product of any half century.  Many of the problems now manifest in the Church have there foundation in pre Vatican II times.
        Those who in past times understood Latin as a second language and those who read the "New Mass" in the vernacular have apparently not spiritually reflected upon the content of the new liturgy.  They have not used a spiritual approach to understanding what is presented.  They have either ignored discrepancies or have accepted the existing pervasive flawed theology without proper reflection.  Others understanding what is presented in the New Liturgy have drawn obvious conclusions from a humanistic perspective and have thereby been instrumental in the diminishment of faith.

As translated from the Latin prior to Vatican II – Saint Joseph Daily Missal © 1957:

As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be, world without end.

    This ending to the Glory Be –simplistically accepted but not infallible doctrine of the Church– supports the false beliefs of the masonic based Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses. The revised Catholic Church sanctioned ending is found later in this document.   The world does come to an end.
• Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.  Matthew 24:35
• Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.  Mark 13:31
• Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.  Luke 21:33
• Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth. The former heaven and the former earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.  Rev. 21:1

May Almighty God have mercy on you, forgive you your sins, and bring you to life everlasting.

    The server's response to the celebrant's confiteor and later the priest's response to the server's confiteor leads to the concept of absolution from sins apart from sacramental confession.

P./  May the Almighty and Merciful Lord grant us pardon, + absolution, and remission of our sins.

    Mass is not the designated forum for absolution from sin.

P./  (or Deacon) By the words of the Gospel may our sins be taken away.

    Another unwarranted appurtenance to the Liturgy.

P./  Accept, O Holy Father, Almighty and Eternal God, this spotless host, which I, Your unworthy servant, offer to You, my living and true God, to atone for my numberless sins, offenses, and negligences;

    An unconsecrated host is not in itself spotless nor is it a piece of bread that is being offered. For a better understanding of what is being offered see the following web page: http://www.33cm.com/true-mass.html

    The death of Jesus on the cross was not atonement for particular sin but rather was general atonement for the consequence of the sin of Adam which was eternal separation from God, that is, the gates of Heaven were opened to those who would appropriately repent. Particular sins under normal circumstances require individual confession and absolution with required contrition and penance.

P./  (Still before the consecration) "We offer You, O Lord, the chalice of salvation,"

    The chalice is not being offered. This is seen as a flowery appurtenance. The projected contents have personally already been offered by Jesus during His Last Supper. See above referenced web page.

P./  In a humble spirit and with a contrite heart, may we be accepted by You, O Lord, and may our sacrifice so be offered in Your sight this day as to please You, O Lord God.

    Jesus' sacrifice on the cross was for us but was not our sacrifice. Our offerings of sacrifice are our own personal sacrifices that are offered with the one sacrifice that made entry into Heaven available to His faithful.

P./  Come, O Sanctifier, Almighty and Eternal God, and bless + this sacrifice prepared for the glory of Your Holy Name.

    In commemoration of Jesus we participate in His one propitiatory sacrifice. Jesus offered His sacrifices, to be finalized on Calvary, for our benefit. We are expected to join our sacrifices in this life to His for the good of the Church as confirmed by Saint Paul.
• Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body, which is the church,  Col. 1:24
Similar occurrences take place in other prayers prior to and in the early part of the Canon of the Mass.

P./  and cause us to be numbered in the flock you have chosen.

    For God to "cause us to be numbered" would to be the equivalent of Him taking away our free will. This is something that would be counterproductive to the purpose for the creation of intellectual beings designed to share with Him in eternal life. Asking for human  free will  to be diminished should be seen as an insult to God's creative design.
• Then God said: "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. Let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, and the cattle, and over all the wild animals and all the creatures that crawl on the ground."  Genesis 1:26

P./  Your chief priest Melchisedec offered to You, a holy sacrifice and a spotless victim.

    Jesus is the chief priest, not Melchisedec who was the prototype priest.

P./  we implore You to admit us, not weighing our merits, but freely granting us pardon.

    How is it that God is implored not to weigh our merits when we have been specifically told that that is how we are to be judged?
• He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.  Mt. 25:33 [Mt. 25:31-46]

P./  Deliver us, we beseech You, O Lord, from all evils, past, present, and to come;

    Seeking of deliverance from all evil has the effect of asking God to remove the consequences of sinfully exercised free will and has the end result of removing motivation for doing what is right and just. It should be kept in mind that failure to do good when the opportunity is presented warrants everlasting punishment. Omission of good has the same ultimate effect as commission of evil.

P./  Lamb of God, You take away the sins of the world,

    Jesus does not take away the sins (plural) of the world. He only takes away the consequence of Adam's sin, that is, loss of possible entry into Heaven. Personal sins must be appropriately confessed and forgiven individually if a person is to benefit from Jesus' salvific death. This error has been carried forward into the Novus Ordo Mass as has some of the concepts concerning forgiveness of sins during Mass.

P./  deliver me by this Your most sacred Body and Blood from all my sins and from every evil... world without end.

    Repeat of above references concerning loss of free will. Note: The divine office said by priests and deacons has been corrected as follows:
"Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit;
as it was in the beginning, is now and will be forever. Amen."

        This is not intended as an exhaustive list of problems contained in the Tridentine Mass but does give a reasonable presentation of some of the concerns. The following was stated in prior correspondence in response to the question:

    What were the reasons given by the 'Pope' Paul VI that caused him to change the Old Mass to the present form? OR What is wrong with the Old Mass?
• Priest saying the consecration inaudibly. (This is considered to be a major flaw.)
      A grave concern regarding the Tridentine Mass is that the Consecration is said silently allowing a corrupt priest to invalidly consecrate (Note:  a false or automatically excommunicated priest does not have the authority to validly consecrate.).  Tridentine Mass enthusiasts should reflect on the original consecration.  When Jesus consecrated the bread and wine during His Last Supper (the necessary Passover preparatory meal) He did so in a clearly audible manner while facing those who would be His assistant priests and/or otherwise participating as a priestly people.  The concept of priestly people, as found in Exodus 19:5-6, finds fullest meaning through New Testament offerings made by people of true faith.
• More participation of the people. (Within limits there is nothing wrong in this.)
• Vernacular language so that people could directly understand. (Jesus said Mass in the vernacular, not in Latin.)
• Increased number of readings.  —  Even if Paul VI had not been a moral pope –as some believe– he still had legal jurisdiction over matters not concerning faith and morals. No Mass form has ever met the criteria for being infallible (permanent) as there has never been a universally mandatory form (there were many exceptions authorized while the Tridentine Mass was mandated in the Latin Rite and since this Mass was originally authorized it has been updated on different occasions).
      Of concern is the moral validity and intention of the priest celebrant while consecrating in addition to his using of the prescribed form for consecration. Proper matter for consecration is also necessary. NOTE: Matters of discipline are always open to correction and adjustment most particularly if not applied as an absolute universal requirement, that is, in all rites without any exceptions.
      The Words of Jesus to Peter should be kept in mind, "I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven.  Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." [Mt. 16:19]
      Proper understanding of the Gospel illustrates that the current pope or any future pope and has the authority to rescind any prior doctrine of his own or that of a former pope.  The Word of God itself, from the beginning of Genesis to the conclusion of the Apocalypse, can never be diminished, reversed, or terminated on the authority of any pope.

Fr. David C. Trosch
December 9 (8), 2002 – Revised January 19, 2008
Feast of the Immaculate Conception

The following are prior statements of this man from Malaysia with interspersed comments.

More participation in the New Mass does not necessarily mean getting closer to God. Whenever I attended the New Mass, I felt discouraged. This is my personal perception of the New Mass:

1. Unnecessarily noisy, too much socializing
2. Choirs replaced by noisy band; too loud and concert-like
3. Clapping not for God but for themselves; eg when the Choir perform very well!
4. Altargirls - I dislike to see them taking over the role of the altarboys and standing in the sanctuary
5. Women are not properly dressed : wearing tight jeans, see through
6. More people prefer to just sit and stand; kneeling is too troublesome
7. Bishops/Priests spreading heretical teaching/doctrine eg The Church is not infallible, Jesus is not the only way to God, The Church is used to spread Islam in the name of 'Christian-Islam Dialogue' by a Jesuit Priest
8. The holiness, reverence, respect in the environment is gone for good. The Church is just a hall for social event, no longer 'known' as Church of God or God's House.
9. The Church itself breaking the Ten Commandment eg Cafeteria is opened for business on Sunday.
   
   It is not the Church but is members of the clergy and parishioners that commit wrongs.
10. The use of vernacular language has undermined unity eg Chinese people will attend the Chinese Mass. In Islam, they used one language and the unity is unbreakable! The used of vernacular language can 'distort' the Catholic doctrine.
    
    Jesus said Mass in the vernacular. While Latin is one of the three languages posted on the cross, it was neither the language Jesus used nor was it the language of the New Testament. I do however believe that in the Latin Rite the use of some Latin (Greek or Hebrew in others Rites) should be retained so that people of any language may have some degree of participation.
11. In summary, the New Mass is like a Protestant Service with the table (no altar!) and communion in the hands! When the priest is facing the people, the people will 'concentrate' on him rather to Jesus on the big Cross in front or the Tabernacle. It is more people-centered and less God-centered.
    
    I disagree with Communion in the hands and acknowledge that the way the New Mass is commonly being said that it is people centered and less God-centered. Note however that when Jesus said the first Mass in the vernacular He faced His congregation so that they could see and understand what was taking place.

    Suggested revisions in the New Mass (these allow for additional improvements) coupled with the sincerity of a moral celebrant will bring the liturgy to proper sanctity.

    
    
12. If there is an exception in the dogma No Salvation Outside The Church, why would a Christian be willing to die as a martyr to spread the Good News? If a person can be saved just by doing good (maybe according to his conscience or pagan religion), then Jesus is not needed and Jesus is not the only way to God? Are you saying anybody can be saved without Jesus?
    
    No one is saved but through Jesus, but, if one has not known of the name of Jesus or His particular teachings then one is not accountable for them. However, one is always accountable under natural law. God is truth and one must always be open to truth and when it is found must then put it into practice.
        Having known the teachings of Jesus and those of His authorized Church, one would loose salvation if through his own fault he departs from them. Under some circumstances one may be a moral member of the Church without being a legal member. It is unreasonable to expect that someone without reasonable access to Church teachings would be accountable for them.
13. What is your comment regarding Pope Michael?
    http://www.popemichael.homestead.com/index.html
    While like many he has accepted that there are many problems in the hierarchy of the contemporary Church, he has himself separated from the will of God. By intent or not he either has or will probably lead others into false beliefs. On his web site I did not find any attempt to established the authenticity of his position or name those who had the authority to elect him as pope or how they obtained such authority. Unfortunately he is only one of several such false popes spawned by the current corruption in the Church.
14. You teaches that Pope John Paul II is the legal Catholic Pope. I am very sure he was a heretic prior to his Election.
    
    Even a heretic can be elected as legal pope. A legal pope only has legal authority, not moral authority.

Thank you Father for your reply.

At 08:48 AM 9/14/2002 +0800, you wrote:

Dear Fr. Trosch,

Has Outside The Church There Is No Salvation been declared as a dogma?

Outside The Church There Is No Salvation has been declared as a dogma but must be placed into proper context. This dogma concerned people who were a part of the faith and then left it or were considering leaving it. It would also concern those who had sufficient knowledge of the faith and had had the opportunity to witness proper faith in practice (good example by members of the faith now often lacking) but did not accept the faith.
    Water Baptism is only required for those who have knowledge of the requirement together with other teachings and witness of faith practice. One can be said to be an informal member of the Church who has been open to truth and has actively practiced truths when obtained (desire for what is good and holy -- practicing the concepts of the Golden Rule even if not acquainted with it as such -- recognition of a superior being, a creator, etc.). A careful reading of the unchangeable New Testament, particularly the Gospels reinforces this position. Even in the Old Testament there is no condemnation of everyone not following the Mosaic practices. Jesus even performed miracles for those who were not Jews. These can not be said to be under condemnation.
    The doctrine essentially proclaims that no one may reject the faith who has sufficient knowledge of the teachings of Jesus.

Sincerely in Christ,
Fr. David

Suffering in Hell               Relating to God               God is Love
Entry Page       HOME       Site Map       E-MAIL: Editor

---

Copyright © 1993-2002 by Father David C. Trosch - All Rights Reserved
Permissions granted for non-profit purposes.
http://www.trosch.org

This web site is produced and provided as a service by Life Enterprises Unlimited.
Contents may be reproduced ?unchanged? provided source, with link, is noted.
Current Debt is in excess of $50,000.00
Please help us to continue this service.  Mail contributions to:


    LIFE ENTERPRISES UNLIMITED
           (A 501-c-3 Non-Profit Organization)
    P. O. Box 850307
    Mobile, AL  36685
    U. S. A.